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November 2004
The significance of drug-use in Pirsig's writing and philosophy
Brief comments:
Are there any original insights about drug-use and drug-addition
suggested by Pirsig's writings and philosophy?
Archive of Posts ( Thread
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October 2004
Does Subject-Object Metaphysics = Cartesianism?
Brief comments:
Exploring the connections between the MoQ and present day
academia to try and break out of the SOM ghetto.
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September 2004
Is language a Social Level phenomenon?
Brief comments:
At the Social Level, is language the equivalent of
DNA at the biological level?
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August 2004
MoQ evaluation of 'Intellectual Property'
Brief comments:
How does the MoQ evaluate control over the flow of ideas?
Should authors and inventors have exclusive rights to their
creations? Or should they be in the public domain because
the free flow of ideas also promotes innovation?
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July 2004
Slipping back to Victorian values
Brief comments:
The 20th century included many important social, economic and
scientific/intellectual advances.
Is it fair to say that at the end there was an "intellectual, social
and economic rustbelt"? What could have prevented the rusting?
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June 2004
Money and the MoQ
Brief comments:
Is money really a central motivator in life?
There are many who do what they do despite
having enough money to last ten lifetimes.
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May 2004
What is a Level in the MoQ?
Brief comments:
A self-explanatory Topic Suggestion
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April 2004
Metaphysical/Mystical Distinctions
Brief comments:
Discussion from March continued into April
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March 2004
Metaphysical/Mystical Distinctions
Brief comments:
Does Pirsig's work help us to sort out the distinctions
between metaphysics and 'mystical reality'?
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February 2004
Which MoQ?
Brief comments:
Is it THE MoQ we are discussing (i.e. as meant by Pirsig) or are we
(should we be) discussing the merits of our various versions (with Pirsig's
writings expressing only one version or even a version that develops in
time)?
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January 2004
A Sense of Value?
Brief comments:
Does Pirsig adequately support his notion that we have a 'sense of value'
analogous to the five traditional senses?
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December 2003
Pirsig's Letter to Paul Turner
Brief comments:
Pirsig's conception of the intellect [OR: the intellectual level; OR the fourth level of the
MOQ], as expressed most recently in his
letter to Paul Turner of 27 September 2003, is
incoherent and unsustainable.
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November 2001
Social Level Vs. intellectual Level
Brief comments:
In ' Lila ' Mr. Pirsig states that in the 20th century there was a battle
going on between the social and the intellectual level and that the
intellectual level has won.
My question is: Is that true?
and if it is true in which value patterns has this victory manifested itself.
Posts
October 2001
Individual Freedom
Brief comments:
Is the individual freedom from the society a means or an end of the intellectual level?
Posts
September 2001
Fact/Value Dichotomy (Ought from Is)
Brief comments:
The Fact/Value Dichotomy comes up occasionally as a bone of contention that
the MoQ should be able to either solve or dissolve. This seems to have
started with Hume and, I think, "A Treatise on Human Nature". Referring to
proofs of the being of God:
"... when of a sudden I am surprised to find
that instead of the usual copulations of propositions "is" and "is not", I
meet with no proposition that is not connected with an "ought" or "ought
not" ... as this "ought" or "ought not" expresses some new relation or
affirmation it is necessary that it be observed and explained; and at the
same time a reason should be given for what seems altogether inconceivable,
how this new relation can be a deduction from others which are entirely
different from it."
In other words, is it reasonable to derive OUGHT from IS and does the MoQ
allow, or preferably insist, that this is acceptable.
Posts
August 2001
Quality is not of mind?
Brief comments:
The statement made by Phaedrus of ZAMM (Chp.19) that Quality does not reside in the
material world is readily accepted, but the rest of it - that it doesn't reside in the
mind - seems more obscure. What does it mean that Quality is not of mind?
Posts
July 2001
MOQ Solution to the Subject-Object Schism
Brief comments:
What exactly is the solution to the subject-object schisma given by MOQ ?
We know that MOQ replaces the object-subject split with a static-dynamic split, but for
example the mind-matter relation is not clear (as turned out last months discussion). If MOQ
goes beyond SOM then it should be possible to describe SOM in terms of MOQ and thus
clearifying typical SOM problems.
I propose the folowing problems:
Posts
June 2001
SPACE-TIME
Brief comments:
The MOQ describes an evolutionary process which appears to take place
within fixed parameters of space and time, yet we know from physics that
space-time is not fixed in this way.
Posts
May 2001
FREE WILL & SELF
Posts
April 2001
What is the best way to "picture" the MoQ?
Brief comments:
Over the years members of this forum several different ways for ways to
"picture" the MoQ (or "visualize", if you prefer). There's
an old one at the Quantonics site and Pirsig offered a way in the SODV
paper, etc. I suggest we pool our thoughts to figure out if
there is a best visual representation of the system at work.
(
SODV paper,
Quantonics)
Posts
March 2001
QUALITY = MORALITY = REALITY
Posts
February 2001
QUALITY, DYNAMIC QUALITY AND STATIC QUALITY.
Posts
January 2001
THE LEVELS
Brief comments:
As we now have a list of topics which appear to cause problems with the MoQ or
which cause someproblems with understanding, it would seem a shame to throw them
away. It's alreadybeen suggested during the month to take these problems and go
at them one ata time until we at least get time until we at least get some form
of consensus which can be summarised(or maybe more than one summary of views if
there are two or more competing views)and put on the website.
The order that we continue with can be arranged/voted for in subsequent
months.
For January the topic is THE LEVELS.
Posts
December 2000
What's wrong with the MOQ?
Brief comments:
We've talked about our favorite passages from LILA, and we've talked about
what it has meant for us. Now let's turn it around and ask, what's wrong with
the MOQ? My intention is that we make a checklist of all the loopholes,
inconsistencies and weaknesses of the MOQ. The initial objective is not to
solve all the problems, just to identify them and create a 'to do'
list for future dialog
Posts
November 2000
How has Lila has affected our lives
Brief comments:
In order to bring a pragmatic element into the discussion, state how Lila has
affected our lives from a personal perspective
Posts
October 2000
'Is democracy the best (most moral) option for the q-social level?'
Brief comments:
Of course I'm not longing
for totalitarianism, but I think our modern democracies are far from being
perfect. Is the will of the majority enough to declare what's right and
what's wrong? For example, has the majority of a democratic nation like the
USA the right to require the capital punishment? And is it moral that the main
gauge for a statesman to take a decision is the voice of the majority?
Posts
September 2000
Metaphors and the MoQ
Brief comments:
In their books ''Metaphors We Live By'' and 'Philosophy In The
Flesh' George Lakoff and Mark Johnson make the following points:
'The mind is inherently embodied. Thought is mostly unconscious.
Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical.'
According to Lakoff,
metaphor appears to be a neural mechanism that allows us to adapt the neural
systems used in sensory-motor activity to create forms of abstract reason.
'If this is correct, as it seems to be,' he says, 'our
sensory-motor systems thus limit the abstract reasoning that we can perform.
Anything we can think or understand is shaped by, made possible by, and
limited by our bodted by our bodies, brains, and our embodied interactions in the world.
This is what we have to theorize with.'
Assuming there is value to this theory:
Let's explore the relationship between metaphors and the MoQ.
Are they primary to its development? If so, which ones, how many, etc? The
goal being if an understandable metaphor or a series of metaphors could be
found it might possibly be the elusive 'catechism of the MoQ'
Posts
August 2000
Explain why the Dynamic is more moral than the static.
Brief comments:
We cannot leave this
hanging. For example, we could grade morality, ala Ken Wilbur, based upon the
degree of pattern as a whole and as a part. The problem here is that this is
that this is not just adding to the MOQ, it is CHANGING it. However, it solves
LOTS of problems!
Posts
July 2000
Is assigning patterns to levels an 'art' or a 'science'?
Brief comments:
I propose that this month we scan LILA for clues and share our ideas on whether
assigning patterns to levels is an 'art' or a 'science', and if there's no
such 'science', does this leave the MoQ open to charges of being nothing but
an elaborately veiled emotivism?
Posts
June 2000
What exactly is the Intellectual Level?
Brief comments:
Of all the levels, the one that seems to create the most confusion or appear
most obscure is the intellectual level. What exactly is it? What are its
values? What are its goals? How does it manifest itself? Why should
intellectual level values prevail over social level values? Are intelligence
and intellectual value the same thing. In short, define the intellectual
level.
Posts
May 2000
Discussing 'The Giant'.
Brief comments:
I suggest that we discuss 'the Giant.' Cities as living entities,
larger than ourselves. Not against or for us. Does the Giant have a Devouring
nature? How do we relate metaphorically to the 'City' as the
'red blood cell' does to the body or carbon based life forms does
to the inorganic level? Do you feel the pulse?
Posts
April 2000
FREEDOM
Brief comments:
What is freedom? How does the MoQ provide for it ? How it the same,
different, than other philosophies? etc. in other words...... What are the
qualities of freedom?
Posts
March 2000
LILA - The First 3 Chapters
Brief comments:
Re-read the first three chapters of LILA and discuss what Pirsig is
saying and what it means.
Posts
February 2000
Criticising the SOM position.
Brief comments:
The subject-object metaphysics (SOM) that seems to attract so much
blame is also described as, 'a straw man, a position held by no-one'.
Who exactly does hold a purely SOM position? Who completely denies the
existence of Quality? If nobody, or very few people, who or what are we
criticising?
Posts
January 2000
Why are art and technology divorced?
Brief comments:
Seen in the light of MOQ, why are art and technology divorced? What is their
role today? Is this divorce definitive?
Posts
December 1999
Which are your favorite passages in Lila and why?
Posts
November 1999
Replacing the subject/object division.
Brief comments:
A Subject/Object Metaphysics makes us look for the reason for everything in
one of its two realms--for instance the culture vs. nature debate. As the
Metaphysics of Quality rejects the subject/object division as fundamental,
where does it look for (and find) an explanation?
Posts
October 1999
A Fifth Level?
Brief comments:
Pirsig says that the four levels of the MOQ are 'all there is'. But
if each level evolved out of the one beneath it, then is it possible for a
fifth level to emerge? If so what are the possible candidates for this level
and how would we recognize it?
Posts
September 1999
The Greeks
Brief comments:
Seen in the light of the MOQ, what is it that is described in the last part
of ZMM (The Greeks). Is it the emergence of SOM, the'coming of age' of the
Intellectual level, or...?
Posts
August 1999
Static AND Dynamic Quality together
Brief comments:
'That's the whole thing: to obtain static and Dynamic Quality
simultaneously. If you don't have the static patterns of scientific
knowledge to build upon you're back with the cave man. But if you don't have
the freedom to change those patterns you're blocked from any further
growth.' (Chapter 17, page 222, Bantam hard back edition.)
What does Pirsig mean here?
What does it mean for a real live person to obtain both simultaneously?
Posts
July 1999
MOQ and the Soul
Brief comments:
Is there a soul or self? If so, how does it fit into the MOQ?
Posts
June 1999
Choosing Right from Wrong
Brief comments:
Will anyone knowingly do wrong if he or she knows it's wrong? Or in MoQ
terms: Will a person (or a society, or a molecule) knowingly choose a low
Quality action over a high Quality action?
Posts
May 1999
Dynamic/Static Relationship
Brief comments:
With reference to the examples given in LILA, explain dynamic and static
quality and the relationship between them.
Posts
April 1999
MOQ and the realities of power
Brief comments:
H.N.Brailsford has said 'the crude issue of power... is always the last
of the realities that sensitive and reasonable men can bring themselves to
face'.
What, if anything, does the Metaphysics of Quality have to say about the
realities of power.
Posts
March 1999
Explain the MOQ in 45 minutes or less
Brief comments:
How does one explain the Metaphysics of Quality in 45 minutes or less to
people who have never heard of it? That is, how does one reduce the MOQ to a
catechism?
Posts
February 1999
Are 'YOU' defined by your DNA?
Brief comments:
Suppose there is a teleportation system that copies your DNA, kills you then
instantaneously builds a perfect copy of you at a different location would
you agree to travel by it? Or suppose it doesn't kill you, would it create
another you? What does it take? Is it enough to copy your DNA? Are
'you' defined by your DNA?
Posts
